By Jesse Marx
By Chris Parker
By Jake Rossen
By Jesse Marx
By Michelle LeBow
By Alleen Brown
By Maggie LaMaack
By CP Staff
On the morning of May 16, Eng Yang rose early. He read notes he had taken 30 years earlier in books that had survived the trek out of the mountains of Laos, across the Mekong River, through the refugee camps of Thailand, and beyond the Pacific, all the way to his Brooklyn Park home.
He put on a white button-up and a sweater and set out fruits and juices. Just before 10 a.m., his niece, the author Kao Kalia Yang, arrived with a sound engineer. The three connected their phone to a studio at WNYC, New York City's public radio station, and got on the line with a producer and co-host of Radiolab, a popular science show that boasts more than four million monthly listeners via downloads or streaming, and even more who catch broadcasts on over 300 radio stations nationwide.
For the next two hours, Eng, with Kalia translating, told the producer, Pat Walters, and the host, Robert Krulwich, what he remembered. He talked about where he was born, about the Laotian village where he grew up. He talked about how his people, the Hmong, had fought along with the Americans during the Vietnam War and the Secret War in Laos, and how, after the U.S. pulled out of the region, the Vietnamese and the Lao retaliated.
He talked about how their Communist militias used bombs and guns, and something else. There were planes, he remembered, that sprayed some kind of substance, a gas or a powder. The Hmong who had seen it described it as pink, blue, and green, but most often as yellow. Like a yellow rain.
Months later, on Monday, September 24, Radiolab released a podcast of its segment on yellow rain. The episode, titled "The Fact of the Matter," was supposed to be about the nature of truth.
The middle segment of the hour-long show explored the story of yellow rain. As Radiolab described it, with the help of a former CIA agent and two leading scientists, the belief that yellow rain was a chemical weapon almost single-handedly re-escalated the Cold War.
After walking through what the stuff was, how the government came to believe it was toxic (and to blame the Soviets), and how it led to the U.S. producing its own chemical weapons for the first time in 20 years, the show threw listeners a curveball.
The two scientists explained how their work led them to hypothesize that yellow rain wasn't a manufactured chemical at all. It was honeybee droppings.
Earlier in the segment, Radiolab had introduced the Yangs, and after unpacking the honeybee theory, the show returned to them.
"At a certain point in our conversation," related Walters, the producer, "we explained that the evidence they'd been attacked by chemical weapons seems a little shaky."
Eng disagreed. "How do you explain the kids dying?" he asked. "That where there is this yellow thing, where there are no bees, whole villages die?"
Walters conceded that the Hmong had definitely died. "They were malnourished and drinking from contaminated streams; diseases like dysentery and cholera were rampant," he said in the podcast. "And the way a lot of people see it is that they may have misattributed some of these mysterious deaths to this cloud of bee poop that looked like it could have been a chemical weapon."
Kalia began to feel that the inquiry had become an inquisition. "There's a sad lack of justice," she said, "that the word of a man who survived this thing must be pitted against a professor from Harvard."
Krulwich didn't let up. "But as far as I can tell, your uncle didn't see the bee pollen fall," he argued. "Your uncle didn't see a plane. All of this is hearsay."
When Kalia answered, her voice cracked and she started to sob through her words. "We have lost too much heart and too many people," she finally concluded. "I think the interview is done."
Once the podcast hit, listeners started commenting in swarms. Radiolab has since amended the episode. One of the show's hosts, Abumrad, issued a response. The other, Krulwich, apologized both in writing and at the end of the altered podcast.
But as the hosts tried to mitigate the damage, audience comments continued to spiral into the hundreds. For David Shih, a professor of English at the University of Wisconsin, it was a textbook example of media bullying.
"This was a racialized event," Shih says. "This was members of an advantaged group speaking for members of a targeted group and saying, 'You don't know what really happened to you. We do.'"
Eng Yang has a wide, friendly face, flecked with sun spots and laugh lines. But when he remembers his life in Laos in the 1970s, that face becomes serious, concentrated. He wants to tell the story carefully.
In the aftermath of the American wars, when the Vietnamese and the Lao started attacking his people, Yang became a leader of the Hmong resistance. By the mid-1970s, he had fled his village and gone to live in a rebel hideout in the caves of Phu Bia mountain.
The Thai government supplied the outmatched Hmong fighters with some supplies, Yang remembers, like medicine. They also sent a radio.
All I keep thinking is the Hmong would have noticed and mentioned the bees in their account of yellow rain. How high do the bees fly during the cleansing flight? To high to see?
The reason every party is doing everything it can to censor this inhumane aggression against the Hmong is that the Hmong had been used as pawns for such parties to test their weapons, including chemical ones. And when evidences were found, everybody has an obligation to reverse the findings. However, no matter what scientists and powerful parties may argue, it is without doubt that the Hmong had been through a period of very inhumane chemical warfare. If it were not the Hmong, the world would have done something about it, but since it were the Hmong, it is nobody's business.
My late dad said, "yellow rain" did fall from the sky when he was fighting the Vietcong and Pathet Lao near the Ho Chi Minh Trail. Years later, my father died from hemorrhage.
I know Uncle Eng Yang and the Yang family, especially Uncle Soua. I grew up very close to the Yang family in the Ban Vinai camp. He and his brothers DIDN'T fight during the Vietnam War. Their dad paid other villagers' sons to fight in placement of the sons. However, Eng did work or volunteer, as radio operator and security enforcer, for General Vang Pao's POST-WAR cause and Vue Mai and crossed the Thai-Lao border numerous times (est. roughly from 1975 to 1985). Was there chemical weapon/yellow rain used in the jungle or in Hmong villages during that time? The answer is: (though the US no longer involved) YES--there were chemical dropped on the Freedom fighters and Hmong escapees who took refuge in the jungle. The yellow rain came. The Hmong did experience this horrible act. After the "yellow rain" most of them could not functional mentally or physically and left to die in the jungle and those with minor effects escaped to the camp. In the Ban Vinai Camp, some of them became mentally ill, some experienced strokes/hemorrhage, lung issues, and others died unexplained deaths. You just knew something strange's going on. Not even the shaman in our Section 3 Quarter 30 could save their souls. To say that the "yellow stuff" is bee excrement is politically motivated and hurtful. It's very shameful to not recognize something that did happen to the Hmong. The CIA/State Department needs to declassified these information. The Russian needs to show responsibility and show the world the data, the T2 toxins, they sold to the Vietnamese government.
carolinakoi. so...you're point is: Mr. Yang should consult with his past mentors/leaders if the topic is about yellow rain?? r.e.a.l.l.y.? LOL i don't want to sound like Robert Krulwich/ Radio Lab but, who'd want to listen about what hmong leaders think when the topic is about Yellow Rain and it's survivors????
I'll give you an idea, open up a blog and please carefully plan what you're going to say about Yellow Rain. And make sure you talk to your mentors or if you prefer, your leaders, about what happened during the war and of Yellow Rain. Remember, blogs are your only option because no is interviewing you if you are going to consult to your leaders and mentors first. Then why not just interview your leader and or mentor instead. A topic like yours when it doesn't suits any intrest. I might come and check your blog when I feel like I want to learn something about a hmong leader but make sure you carefully get every fact right. :)
Personally, I think that Mr. Yang has done his part, he has experinced Yellow Rain as a hmong, so I think he should be able to talk about it freely. I can understand why you might be concern, but I believe that in stating his experince, so honestly and clearly, we understood his message. His message is that Yellow Rain has occured and during the time many hmong died. Whether or not, Yellow rain was chemical used for genocide or bee feces, Eng Yang's take home message is that Yellow Rain is forever memory, a memory of the war, a memory of the deaths of Hmong, and a memory of life before he came to US.
As a young refugee, I remember very well about this story being the topic of discussion in BanViNai Refugee. As a Hmong, this story is not a story that Kao Kalia Yang nor Eng Yang can tell alone. This is a story has many deep secrets. Story such as this should have been more carefully thought and plan in telling the many sides of it. There is even an documentary completed by National Public Radio and aired on television many years ago. The Hmong elders/leaders who were directly involved in this story should have been consulted, particularly, the formers leaders of BanViNai Refugee camp during that time. Evidences have been collected since late 1979s to mid 1980s. I am very suprised that Eng Yang singly chosen to tell this story without consulting his past mentors/leaders. This clearly show a poor planning on Eng Yang's part. Just know that "Yellow Rain" is not a topic that the United States government does not want to deal with. There is a book coming in Spring 2013 that will dscuss a little about this so called "Yellow Rain." But for the future, evidences and people who were involved should be consulted and a careful planning needs to be thought out if we are going to have the world listen to our story.
I cried after reading this story, especially the part about how rude and inconsiderate the Radiolab folks were to the Mr. Yang. Fortunately, not all of the Hmong people had to deal with Yellow Rain as they fought WITH the United States, however for those who did have to experience Yellow Rain are not viewed as liars and uneducated people. There are many secrets the United States does not want to reveal to their people about their role in the Secret War in Laos.
I would just like to clarify that the RadioLab folks had access to the work conducted by the scientists from Princeton and GWU before they ever went to interview Mr. Yang. They never told their audience that there were any scientific views that cast doubt on Meselson's theories. And they happily accepted the assumption that Dr. Mirocha's work was substandard in some way. Did they ever even speak to him? These are the attitudes and practices that made them feel comfortable treating Mr. Yang and his testimony the way they did. If they'd just done their homework and been a little less eager to tell a story about Reagan, "alleged toxins," and bee poop, they might have avoided all of this.
Thank you for the insights and perspectives from each sides, this has helped clear up many unanswered-questions for me. You have done a great job of journalism here! WELL DONE
"What proof would be enough?" he asks. "Well to me, the personal, first-hand information from the Hmong people is enough."
Said no Scientist Ever.
I am sorry to have to say that if a Hmong person experienced something, I am not going to doubt them and say, You never experienced this, maybe you were hallucinating or something. THAT IS JUST WRONG. This is similar to any time atrocities happen to a population and everybody chooses to close their eyes instead of seeing the truth. Nobody asked the Japanese Americans to be interned in camps, but they were, and are we going to discount their horrific memories of being put there. Nobody asked the millions of Jews who were killed in the Holocaust if they wanted genocide to happen to their people, but if we were to discount the fact that it happened, then we are turning a blind eye on truth, history, and facts.
The U.S. gov't recuited the Hmong to help fight their war in SE Asia. This turned the Hmong into enemies of the state and of their allies, including China and the Russians. Chemical warfare was used in SE Asia against the Hmong. Even if no one will admit it, doesn't mean it's not truthful, factual, and part of our history.
@Paul They did do their homework, they did say it is one theory. What I took away from the episode is not that Krulwich was rude but that they could not have been prepared for this kind of overreaction. "So we talked to a scientist who thinks A, and how would you answer that considering B" is not rude and it's not a crime, it's something that the interviewee can calmly debunk. Instead -- complete meltdown, hysterics, THEY DID NOT JUST BELIEVE EVERYTHING WE SAY, HOW RUDE.
Listening to this episode I thought Ms Yang was acting irrationally, and that was it. Nothing was dictated to her and instead of breaking out in tears she could have responded with what is said here -- "that is just one opinion, and I'll have you know that we distinctly saw XYZ, and we can back this up with A,B and C." Can't back it up? Shrug and understand that people want evidence.
Exactly where in the RadioLab piece do they offer any evidence to contradict the bee dung theory? Exactly where in the piece do they do anything to suggest that the bee dung theory is anything other than the best sceintific explanation for the yellow rain phenomenon? They had evidence in hand in the form of reviewsand studies by Jonathan Tucker and the aforementioned scientists from GWU and Princeton.
See, for example, an article in “Politics & the Life Sciences,” 24 August 2007, starting on page 24. (Note this research is more than 25 years newer than Meselson's and used a wide variety of new evidence, including “8,529 pages of United States government documents, declassified . . .and released through a Freedom of Information Act request, including medical records, laboratory reports, diplomatic communications, internal memos, and protocols originating primarily from the Armed Forces Medical Intelligence Center. . .and interviews with 48 individuals with expert knowledge related to Yellow Rain, including 20 who were directly involved in investigating allegations. . .”
A few of the many conclusions in this paper: “Between 1979 and 1982, refugee reports of attacks were consistent with other intelligence data, including known battles and flight paths of aircraft, more than 60 percent of the time. . . Clinical complaints and findings among self-described victims and detailed refugee accounts of attacks were sufficiently similar in Laos, Cambodia, and Afghanistan to suggest a key common factor, most plausibly a Soviet link, in influence and support of direct operational involvement. . .Clinical complaints and findings of alleged victims as documented by photographs, medical records, autopsy results, and third-hand accounts are consistent with mass simultaneous poisoning and not with any known natural disease endemic to Laos, Cambodia, or Afghanistan. . .Approximately 75 percent of alleged attacks involved seeing or hearing a helicopter or airplane, followed by seeing or smelling a gas or powder fall to the ground. . .”
If, in the wake of this and other evidence, including Mirocha's, that the bee crap theory is insufficient to describe what happened, why the hard sell over the course of the show? Why no inclusion of competing theories, even for a moment? If the show isn't about journalism or about science, then fine. But if it is, then what RadioLab did is simply wrong, regardless of the Yangs' reaction to their interviewers. My argument has nothing to do with emotion.