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Corybantic 02/21/2011 2:34:00 PM
"I for my part do not enjoy dealing with this passage, because so far the ears of the Germans are innocent of and uncontaminated by this monstrous depravity..." (Luther’s Works, Vol. 3, 251-252)
"..the heinous conduct of the people of Sodom ” as “extraordinary, inasmuch as they departed from the natural passion and longing of the male for the female, which is implanted into nature by God, and desired what is altogether contrary to nature. Whence comes this perversity? Undoubtedly from Satan, who after people have once turned away from the fear of God, so powerfully suppresses nature that he blots out the natural desire and stirs up a desire that is contrary to nature." (Luther’s Works, Vol. 3, 255)
Luther’s rejection of homosexual activity is not merely a matter of aesthetic preference but rather a theological judgment rooted in the reality of the way the wrath of God is revealed against all ungodliness that will not acknowledge God to be the Creator and Lord that He is. How can this be the first "bible based" Christian church if it doesn't even follow the mandates of its original founder? What a joke.
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02/20/2011 4:02:00 AM
The natural destination of all protestantism is depravity and death. It's just a matter of time. Would it trouble you to know that even a contemptible heretic like Luther condemned the sin of sodomy (homosexual activity or the "gay lifestyle" for the confused modernists)? His comments:
"The heinous conduct of the people of Sodom as extraordinary, inasmuch as they departed from the natural passion and longing of the male for the female, which is implanted into nature by God, and desired what is altogether contrary to nature. Whence comes this perversity? Undoubtedly from Satan, who after people have once turned away from the fear of God, so powerfully suppresses nature that he blots out the natural desire and stirs up a desire that is contrary to nature. (Luther’s Works, Vol. 3, 255)
There are the words of your founder. His split from the only true Church was an enormous error. But he took with him as much truth that suited him. For the rest, he just made it up as he went along. It seems that you, his followers, have taken his lead. You do exactly what he did. You now reject even what he held as truth, and make up the rest as you go along.
And so it goes until there are no more of you. And that day comes soon.
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Dwight Penas 07/24/2008 12:29:00 AM
I am a member of the same Mount Olive Lutheran Church that Bradley Campbell named in his article about gays and lesbians and the ELCA�s policy regarding the ordination of non-celibate gays and lesbians. I had trouble recognizing our church in Mr. Campbell�s description, which seems written more for its �flame� value than to impart any accurate information.
For example, in fact the �stately brick structure� has not stood on our corner for 99 years, though the congregation has existed at that location for that long. On the matter of our architecture, we have no flying buttresses outside, let alone inside, the church building, although we have some pretty nice British-gothic vaulting. Further, I�m not sure what �stale with the smell of incense� means, but I�m a pretty sensitive asthmatic, and I detect no staleness to the air in our church (although it is sometimes redolent with incense � but only on major feast days � and can be pretty warm on summer days).
And as for the �gay male couples with form-fitting shirts that accent their sculpted physiques�: Well, with all due respect and sincere affection for my gay brothers in the congregation, dang few of them qualify for that description. (Such purple prose may enhance soft-core porn fantasies in some, but it most certainly does nothing to portray the congregation whose name was dragged into this disappointing piece.) And of course missing from the author�s description is this little factoid: Most of those gay individuals and gay couples and gay groups of friends are sharing pews with elderly straight couples and individuals, families with teenage and young children, single-and-not-so-young-but- most-decidedly-straight men and women � as well as some lesbian women, too. They also share with those other members of our congregation a love of God, a desire to serve and be served in the liturgy, and the support and affirmation of one another.
But if I found the portrayal (actual and implied) of our congregation to be unfair and inaccurate, I was more troubled by the quite unfair take on the issue of the ordination of non-celibate gay men or lesbians. This is a theological issue for our congregation and the denomination of which we are members. And while theologians do not often expect secular writers to understand the nuances of the Church�s theological reflection and decision-making, we do expect � or at least, hope for -- balance. To portray the issue of whether or not to ordain gay people who do not abide by the rules of our Church as a kind of mindless, knee-jerk policy of discrimination simply is unfair. It is unfair to the sincere theologians who have guided the Church in her wrestling with the matter, who cannot see in the Bible warrant for a change in the ages-long policy. And it is unfair to the many of us who sincerely love our gay and lesbian fellow-members, but do not find the matter as clear-cut as your journal portrays it.
Your author would have written a more balanced article if he had sought out someone to express the deep compassion and angst that is experienced by many of us who feel bound by the Church�s discipline and who hold others to that same discipline. We find nothing to affirm in Pastor Chavez�s words, by which he equates gays and lesbians in mutually supportive and loving relationships with �serial pedophile[s]� and �pornography addict[s].� That is to say, he does not speak for me or for anyone I know. Not all who would enforce the Church�s policy on this matter do so out of hostility, bigotry, or anything similar. And yet his was the only voice cited in any way to explain the status quo.
The article was successful in raising the heat on this issue. Lamentably it did very little to cast any light.
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John Dornheim 07/21/2008 8:14:00 PM
The church historically, when dealing with social change, has struggled when too many do not have any sense of connection to those involved in that change, so I thank you for your informative and forthright article. It is a true blessing to be able to hear these young leaders of our church articulate so well. In the interest of fairness, you needed to present a differing POV but it continues to be quite clear where, in this ELCA, the Gospel resides. I have worked with gay Lutheran pastors for almost 40 years and am fairly convnced that their lives would have been so less complicated and their ministries so more fruitful had they been nurtured in a caring and supportive environment like the one which you present. I hope that we continue to hear these voices throughout our church.
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Adam Froisland 07/21/2008 11:47:00 AM
My name is Adam Froisland and Brenda is my aunt. I remember having a conversation with her shortly after she announced to the family that she was gay. She asked me how I felt and what I thought. She may recall me saying that I did not agree with that lifestyle but it is not my place to judge her. I said that it is between her and her savior and I will love her no less than anyone else. Brenda sent me this e-mail and asked for feedback.
I am not ashamed to say that I am a baby Christian. I was saved on November 5th, 2006; shortly after returning home to Iowa after a year long mobilization in El Paso with the army. Sometime during that year I started reading from Proverbs and Matthew, and discovering books from authors like Joyce Meyer, Stu Weber, Edwin L. Cole, Kenneth Copeland and many others. I needed the thought process I found in those books, because growing up I lived a life that was far from righteous. I mean we went to church on holidays with my family and I could sit and stand like it was an Olympic event. But I didn�t know why we went. I didn�t really understand what sin was, or who this dude was on the cross and what he did for me. I just thought that if you want to go to heaven when you die, you need to go to church�at the least on holidays. My point is that I didn�t learn the standards that our young people, more than anyone today, needs to learn. My life was full of sin and non-righteous behavior. At 15 I was already addicted to cigarettes and alcohol, had started having sex with multiply girls, and I learned how to steal and sell drugs to get ahead. That all evolved into making meth, and carrying guns. What I�m trying to get across is that I had many battles to fight from fear, to adultery, to alcoholism, to addiction, to hate and violence, to the love of money.
The enemy really had a hold of me. My question, what if I went into ministry but didn�t choose to change? What kind of example would I set? I could search the bible for scriptures and use them to justify my lifestyle instead of searching for standards and promises to make my lifestyle fit into the righteousness of God. It was not easy to let go of those things. Although for some reason I always felt it was wrong, I loved to smoke (everything), I loved getting drunk and picking a fight, I loved selling drugs because I made good money and I didn�t have to work a job, I could do what I wanted. The fact is that I was a product of my environment and to live that lifestyle would have been convenient, I could have given into my selfish inclinations and wouldn�t have to be accountable to anyone. What church would have accepted me in the pews let alone behind the pulpit?
I knew I was not living a life that I should have been living so I joined the army in hopes that I would learn standards and find inner strength. So you know, I did learn standards. First I learned where the word generated from. In ancient times when army�s would assemble for battle, the best and strongest soldier in each unit would bear a flag that all the soldiers in that unit could see. That flag was also known as the standard and still is today. To make a long story short, the soldier who carried the standard had a great responsibility. His responsibility was to lead those troops into battle. Wherever the standard went, the unit would follow. If the soldier who carried the standard were to fall, it was then the responsibility of another soldier to pick up the standard and lead; because if a unit compromised the standard and did not pick it back up and drive on then the whole unit would be defeated because they would have no leader.
What in the world does all this have to do with homosexuality in the church? Well�.
I have learned that I don�t have to be a victim of my circumstances, I don�t have to live by my emotions, I don�t have to believe the enemy when he tells me something that is contrary to the Word of God. My pastor holds his bible high in the air and says to the church, �I am called to teach the Word of God and everything I teach is going to be the Word of God and it will come straight out of this book, if I start teaching things and they are not coming from the bible then you need check up on me.� He continues with, �You need to ask, �pastor, where did you get that from because I don�t see that anywhere in my bible.� So I ask, where is it taught that homosexuality is righteous and will be blessed by God? I believe the only way to justify is to say that the bible is flawed and the Holy Spirit did not lead those in the translation of the bible to English and they made some misinterpretations. I on the other hand believe that the bible is perfect and one needs to put His Word first place and final authority. When you discover a scripture that challenges your lifestyle, your emotions, and your current beliefs; you need to repent and get right. Maybe I�m just na� with childlike faith. But isn�t that how we are supposed to be?
I believe this world needs preachers who will take up the standards of God and not deviate from them to fit their selfish inclinations. When you compromise the Word of God in one area of your life it not only hurts your self image; but it creates double-mindedness and makes it that much easier for the enemy to create a stronghold out of that crack in your armor, therefore making it �no big deal� when your character is challenged again. What distinguishes Christians from that of the world? A way of life, standards, a way of treating and loving people as themselves, dreams, a purpose; and the battle to think, love, pray, and imitate Jesus. Jesus may have sat with the sinners but it wasn�t because he was a sinner, it was to tell them that they didn�t have to be sinners. Yes He loves everyone, but love is also giving one the right to choose for themselves, blessing or curse.
Aren�t preachers called to go out into the world and preach the gospel? Does your sexuality hinder you to do so? Is it the world that you are fighting to earn the right to do so as a gay male or female? Or could it be satin, who has ages of experience in deceiving those who could make an impact for God, who has had you trapped since you first felt the calling on your life, and that is what is holding you back from serving the Lord fully? The enemy knows what will trip you up and keep you from living in the complete will of God. So is it ok for the people who sit at the feet of a gay minister to just give in when the temptation gets too strong to fight? Isn�t it true that one must speak the words from their mouth to receive and accept Jesus as the Lord of their life? And this is a decision and a confirmation? So until a homosexual comes out, they are still battling with the choice to either satisfy their flesh or keep on battling for the glory of God. My point is that no decision I ever made under the influence of alcohol was very good, whether it was wine or whiskey, the fact that I was drinking in the first place was a bad decision.
Recommended reading for males who wish to take up standard for living with integrity and strong character, to find the masculinity within, and to lead your family in the will of God: Maximized Manhood-Edwin L. Cole
Courage- Edwin L. Cole
Point Man- Steve Farrar
Finishing Strong- Steve Farrar
Tender Warrior- Stu Weber
Wild at Heart- John Eldredge
Lead On- John Edmund Haggai
Battlefield of the Mind-Joyce Meyer
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Adam Froisland 07/21/2008 11:29:00 AM
My name is Adam Froisland and Brenda is my aunt. I remember having a conversation with her shortly after she announced to the family that she was gay. She asked me how I felt and what I thought. She may recall me saying that I did not agree with that lifestyle but it is not my place to judge her. I said that it is between her and her savior and I will love her no less than anyone else. Brenda sent me this e-mail and asked for feedback.
I am not ashamed to say that I am a baby Christian. I was saved on November 5th, 2006; shortly after returning home to Iowa after a year long mobilization in El Paso with the army. Sometime during that year I started reading from Proverbs and Matthew, and discovering books from authors like Joyce Meyer, Stu Weber, Edwin L. Cole, Kenneth Copeland and many others. I needed the thought process I found in those books, because growing up I lived a life that was far from righteous. I mean we went to church on holidays with my family and I could sit and stand like it was an Olympic event. But I didn�t know why we went. I didn�t really understand what sin was, or who this dude was on the cross and what he did for me. I just thought that if you want to go to heaven when you die, you need to go to church�at the least on holidays. My point is that I didn�t learn the standards that our young people, more than anyone today, needs to learn. My life was full of sin and non-righteous behavior. At 15 I was already addicted to cigarettes and alcohol, had started having sex with multiply girls, and I learned how to steal and sell drugs to get ahead. That all evolved into making meth, and carrying guns. What I�m trying to get across is that I had many battles to fight from fear, to adultery, to alcoholism, to addiction, to hate and violence, to the love of money.
The enemy really had a hold of me. My question, what if I went into ministry but didn�t choose to change? What kind of example would I set? I could search the bible for scriptures and use them to justify my lifestyle instead of searching for standards and promises to make my lifestyle fit into the righteousness of God. It was not easy to let go of those things. Although for some reason I always felt it was wrong, I loved to smoke (everything), I loved getting drunk and picking a fight, I loved selling drugs because I made good money and I didn�t have to work a job, I could do what I wanted. The fact is that I was a product of my environment and to live that lifestyle would have been convenient, I could have given into my selfish inclinations and wouldn�t have to be accountable to anyone. What church would have accepted me in the pews let alone behind the pulpit?
I knew I was not living a life that I should have been living so I joined the army in hopes that I would learn standards and find inner strength. So you know, I did learn standards. First I learned where the word generated from. In ancient times when army�s would assemble for battle, the best and strongest soldier in each unit would bear a flag that all the soldiers in that unit could see. That flag was also known as the standard and still is today. To make a long story short, the soldier who carried the standard had a great responsibility. His responsibility was to lead those troops into battle. Wherever the standard went, the unit would follow. If the soldier who carried the standard were to fall, it was then the responsibility of another soldier to pick up the standard and lead; because if a unit compromised the standard and did not pick it back up and drive on then the whole unit would be defeated because they would have no leader.
What in the world does all this have to do with homosexuality in the church? Well�.
I have learned that I don�t have to be a victim of my circumstances, I don�t have to live by my emotions, I don�t have to believe the enemy when he tells me something that is contrary to the Word of God. My pastor holds his bible high in the air and says to the church, �I am called to teach the Word of God and everything I teach is going to be the Word of God and it will come straight out of this book, if I start teaching things and they are not coming from the bible then you need check up on me.� He continues with, �You need to ask, �pastor, where did you get that from because I don�t see that anywhere in my bible.� So I ask, where is it taught that homosexuality is righteous and will be blessed by God? I believe the only way to justify is to say that the bible is flawed and the Holy Spirit did not lead those in the translation of the bible to English and they made some misinterpretations. I on the other hand believe that the bible is perfect and one needs to put His Word first place and final authority. When you discover a scripture that challenges your lifestyle, your emotions, and your current beliefs; you need to repent and get right. Maybe I�m just na� with childlike faith. But isn�t that how we are supposed to be?
I believe this world needs preachers who will take up the standards of God and not deviate from them to fit their selfish inclinations. When you compromise the Word of God in one area of your life it not only hurts your self image; but it creates double-mindedness and makes it that much easier for the enemy to create a stronghold out of that crack in your armor, therefore making it �no big deal� when your character is challenged again. What distinguishes Christians from that of the world? A way of life, standards, a way of treating and loving people as themselves, dreams, a purpose; and the battle to think, love, pray, and imitate Jesus. Jesus may have sat with the sinners but it wasn�t because he was a sinner, it was to tell them that they didn�t have to be sinners. Yes He loves everyone, but love is also giving one the right to choose for themselves, blessing or curse.
Aren�t preachers called to go out into the world and preach the gospel? Does your sexuality hinder you to do so? Is it the world that you are fighting to earn the right to do so as a gay male or female? Or could it be satin, who has ages of experience in deceiving those who could make an impact for God, who has had you trapped since you first felt the calling on your life, and that is what is holding you back from serving the Lord fully? The enemy knows what will trip you up and keep you from living in the complete will of God. So is it ok for the people who sit at the feet of a gay minister to just give in when the temptation gets too strong to fight? Isn�t it true that one must speak the words from their mouth to receive and accept Jesus as the Lord of their life? And this is a decision and a confirmation? So until a homosexual comes out, they are still battling with the choice to either satisfy their flesh or keep on battling for the glory of God. My point is that no decision I ever made under the influence of alcohol was very good, whether it was wine or whiskey, the fact that I was drinking in the first place was a bad decision.
Recommended reading for males who wish to take up standard for living with integrity and strong character, to find the masculinity within, and to lead your family in the will of God: Maximized Manhood-Edwin L. Cole
Courage- Edwin L. Cole
Point Man- Steve Farrar
Finishing Strong- Steve Farrar
Tender Warrior- Stu Weber
Wild at Heart- John Eldredge
Lead On- John Edmund Haggai
Battlefield of the Mind-Joyce Meyer
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Art Halbardier 07/21/2008 6:02:00 AM
Thank you for taking up the complex issue of the challenges faced by gays and lesbians and the Lutheran Church in a thoughtful, sensitive article. I regret, however, your characterization of Mount Olive as a "gay church", and the distorted description of those of us who fill its pews. Yes, we are blessed with many gay members, who worship next to young heterosexual couples with young children, folks like myself and my wife who are heterosexual though no longer young, and seniors who have worshiped at Mount Olive most of their life. Mount Olive is a very diverse congregation whose members are there for the primary purpose of being fed spiritually through worship and ministry. The writer's one-dimensional portrayal of us was inaccurate.
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Art Halbardier 07/21/2008 5:59:00 AM
Thank you for taking up the complex issue of the challenges faced by gays and lesbians and the Lutheran Church in a thoughtful, sensitive article. I regret, however, your characterization of Mount Olive as a "gay church", and the distorted description of those of us who fill its pews. Yes, we are blessed with many gay members, who worship next to young heterosexual couples with young children, folks like myself and my wife who are heterosexual though no longer young, and seniors who have worshiped at Mount Olive most of their life. Mount Olive is a very diverse congregation whose members are there for the primary purpose of being fed spiritually through worship and ministry. The writer's one-dimensional portrayal of us was inaccurate.
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Jeni Falkman 07/18/2008 10:45:00 PM
I, too, am a student at Luther and I, too, am working towards ordained ministry. I have been richly blessed by these and many other gay and lesbian (and queer!) students. I am glad that their stories could be witnessed here. The times, they appear to be a-changin, to which I can only say, amen, let it be so and let it be now.
Those who wish to throw their bibles at their fellow believers, could also read further and more deeply, remembering that "What God has made clean you must not call profane" (Acts 10:15). And, "the one to whom little is forgiven, loves little" (Luke 7:47). Even more so, we could look to God's preference for justice and richness of grace, which make up the warp and woof of scripture; the echoes of God's love for us all.
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Steve Farrell 07/18/2008 9:06:00 PM
I am amazed sometimes at how people think. As a seminary student myself, I know that God does truly love all people. But He most certainly does NOT love all people�s behavior. Whether people like to hear it or not and whether it is �Politically Correct� to say or not, God�s word specifically states that homosexual behavior is forbidden. See Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1:18-32 and 1st Corinthians 6:9 just to name a few.
It is great that these people have a desire to share the Truth of Jesus Christ with others. But to get up at the pulpit and preach the ways of Jesus Christ while openly living a lifestyle forbidden by Him is being nothing more than a hypocrite. If someone wants to be a Pastor, look at the qualifications listed in 1st & 2nd Timothy as well as Titus. Those are the Pastoral Epistles that gives qualifications for God�s leaders.
And, if you are going to claim to be a Pastor but don�t believe God�s word when it comes to the gay lifestyle, what other parts are you going to claim not to be true? It is a very dangerous and slippery slope when you claim one part of the Bible is true, but another part is not. Be careful not to fall into the trap of Matthew 7:21 when Jesus says �Not everyone who says to me �Lord Lord� will enter the kingdom of heaven but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day, many will say to me �Lord Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name cast out demons and perform many miracles.� I will tell them plainly, Away from me you evildoers, I never knew you!�
To Ms. Wendt, I believe that if the Lord said to you, �and your gay, get over it.� He meant, based on the Truth of God�s word, get over this sin you are living in, stop it, so that you can be a effective servant to me. It is as Jeus told the woman at the well. There is nowhere in God�s word where the Lord ever said �continue on in your sinful ways or ways that I have forbidden.... it�s OK.� God will not be mocked. Homosexual behavior, like all sin, is forgivable. But only if you repent; which means to turn from and stop doing!
And just for �the record�. I know that I am a sinner too; Romans 3:23. I too have areas that need much of God�s grace and mercy. However because I love the Lord and follow His ways, I confess my sins, repent of them and pray for the Lord to change my heart to lead a life that is in full acceptance to His teachings. I pray that these people listed in this article and others that are in the gay lifestyle would find God�s grace and mercy and that they would find that to get that grace and mercy, you can�t live a lifestyle that is forbidden by God and that is in opposition to His Teachings. May the grace of the Lord Jesus be with you!
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Colin Grangaard 07/18/2008 1:20:00 AM
Great article!
I am a student at Luther, a future pastor and thankful for the article. You've done a great job in underscoring the love expressed by these seminarians while touching on the hurdles they're facing. I was very interested with your quantification of the 50+ taken out of clergy leadership. We can also recognize, but cannot quantify the number of people that have been so intimidated by the process that they avoid seminary or avoid even leadership positions for children's ed, small group leadership and other public volunteer positions.
As emergent leaders in the church, many of us are working in our congregations to teach, act and live out love and grace for ALL people. We are advocates in the face of controversy and we seek reconciliation between an old way of thinking and this recognition that love and grace really is for EVERYONE!
We also need help! We need people who are active within our congregations, who are willing to stand with Lauren and Brenda, most of all we need people who stand with us and help effect change. Can you help us?
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Sarah 07/17/2008 7:22:00 PM
In response to the comment from LA - The New Testament doesn't hold more weight than the Old. The difference is that Jesus made all things new and with his death and resurrection, he became the final sacrifice and so the "old" Jewish laws were no longer needed for people to redeem themselves and repent to God.
However, the New Testament has several references to marriage and Christian households, and in every case it is concerning a man and a woman, a husband and wife. God created sex for procreation, which is not possible between same sex partners. Do I believe that homosexuals can be Christians? ABSOLUTELY!! But I also know that the bible clearly lays out that homosexual intimacy is sinful, just the same way that sex outside of marriage in any relationship is sinful...just as lying, or murder, or cheating is sinful. The difference between a liar being ordained and a homosexual being ordained is that the liar recognizes that his/her behavior is sinful and they are repentant (hopefully), but the homosexual does not recognize their relationships as sinful. Just as I would not want a liar/murderer/idol worshiper who thinks their behavior is ok to be my pastor/spiritual leader, so then I would not desire a homosexual to lead me in my faith.
Thanks for reading...God Bless :)
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Raberta 07/17/2008 6:58:00 PM
Now that I've gotten off the floor from reading the comics written in response to the pending RNC Convention, I must commend City pages for the informative article concerning openly gay and lesbian seminarians, and their struggles in being ordained.
The problem is the heterosexual community, especially the so called "protectors of religion". Comparing homosexuals to pedophiles and rapists is totally INSANE. Why didn't someone thump the guy upside his head with The Bible!
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Amalia Vagts 07/17/2008 1:32:00 AM
Thank you for the article sharing stories of openly gay and lesbian seminarians. There are two groups actively working for the full inclusion of people of all sexual orientations and gender identities in the Lutheran Church. You mentioned one--Lutherans Concerned--their website is www.lcna.org. Another group (which I'm affiliated with) is Extraordinary Lutheran Ministries, which credentials & supports openly gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender pastors and seminarians and connects them with Lutheran congregations & ministries. Rev. Jen Nagel & Margaret Kelly (and 43 others) are on the roster of Extraordinary Lutheran Ministries. Learn more at www.elm.org. Also--two corrections of last names--should be Rev. Jen Nagel and Rev. Vicki Pedersen.
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deni gereighty 07/16/2008 9:46:00 PM
I beleive Jesus would have no problem with homosexuals. He would hang out with them. Of course, one way to avoid requiring celibacy is to perform gay marriages so lesbian ansd gay ministers could be married and ordained. Seems like a simple and appropriate solution to me. Sexuality is not bad or wrong, it is part of humanity and nature. It is supposed to be part of who we are and an expression of love. Banning gay marriage reinforces the stereotype that gays are promiscious, just like divorcees used to accused of, or that physiclly handicapped people were stupid. You could also go on a person by peron basis-people in stable relationships should be eligible for ordination. period. Jesus was against hypocrites, and it seems a lot of so-called christians are huge hypocrites. Doesn't the New Testement contain the Word and hold more weight than the OLD anyway? Does Dod approve of discrimination? I don;t think so!
